ICARUS PROJECT FORUMS notes copy paste late August 2013
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Re: 12 step meetings, yay or nay? by joanie_babelonie » Oct 26, 2011 12:50 am Posts: 760 Joined: May 05, 2009 10:21 pm
I started going to AA meetings shortly after my last drink in November, 1975. Fell in with an open-minded group who didn't condemn me for smoking cannabis and taking various pills (all of which I quit completely by mid-1977...) Made a lot of friends, and enjoyed the stories immensely. In many of them I could see- and laugh at- myself. I paid little attention to the steps, kept my lips sealed during the saying of the lord's prayer and just went for compantionship and inspiration. Years later a few alcoholics told me that things I'd said at meetings and on a job I had in Boston where I made no secret about being in recovery helped them achive sobriety. And I was glad to have helped.
I drifted in and out for years and started experiencing more pressure to "work the steps" sometime in the mid-1980's, but always just politely refused. Sometimes I'd go to small discussion meetings where I knew everybody and their approximate sobriety dates, and would realize that I had been sober longer than everybody there put together. So it got to be rather annoying when people who couldn't stay sober for two weeks would get the notion in their heads that their having "worked the steps" gave them some sort of authority to tell me how to live my life. And I became more and more outspoken about hypocrisy within The Program, and that didn't exactly endear me to a lot of people there.
Several times I heard people say at AA meetings that they thought it was better for alcoholics and drug addicts to suffer and die of their disease than it was for them to stay sober without working the steps(!) To be fair, that was not the majority opinion, but it was chilling how many people seemed to actually believe that. And I've heard "old-timers" who made it their business to sponsor a lot of newcomers say bluntly that the real purpose of AA is working the steps, not staying sober.
And of course there was a lot of sleeping around, but that certainly isn't unique to AA. I was not innocent of that myself. And one day in 1985 while cycling I met a young woman who I fell deeply, deeply in love with when she was only six weeks sober and on her way to an AA meeting. We didn't last long as a couple but she's still sober today and still my dearest friend.
But then around 1990 or 1991 came ssri antidepresants and the awful "dual diagnosis" fraud wherein alcoholics- including many who'd been sober for months and years- were told by mental health rackateers who had taken over the treatment industry that staying alcohol-free wasn't enough; that we alcoholics were really just people with bipolar disorder or clinical depression who needed drugs. I started hearing the "chemical imbalance" mantra over and over, ad nauseum, from people who used to be interested in staying sober, so i just left.
The ruination of AA by the pharmaceutical/p$ychiatric mafia is just about the saddest thing I have ever witnessed. I'm sorry to sound so downbeat, but that has been my experience with it. But you're half a world away. Perhaps it's different there.
If there's one thing I learned early in my AA membership that I embrace wholeherartedly, it's the belief that alcoholism is a life-threatening allergy to alcohol and all other addictive drugs. Total abstinence, managed in most cases on a day-to-day basis, is the key to living for anybody who has that allergy. If the AA meetings down there in NZ seem to work for you, by all means stick with them. If not, just remember plenty of alcoholics stay sober without them.
Good luck.
Joanie
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Re: how do you function with suicidal ideation? by dahna {also OP} » Jun 03, 2013 11:02 pm Posts: 861 Joined: Oct 15, 2007 11:07 am
when is suicide the right decision?
Re: how do you function with suicidal ideation? by maamyyrä » Jun 04, 2013 1:24 am
@dahna
1. when it works. and {so when you make sure} you know enough about dying (and about the gazillion things you can do to yourself that do not result in dying but only in long-term debilitating injuries, and forced "treatment". including cutting wrists often does not result in death, drugs mostly don't, etc etc dying isn't as easy as that.)
2. when you make sure that finding your dead body does not harm or traumatize anyone.
3. when you feel it's a cost-benefit type-of decision.
that's the good thing after all. your life belongs to you.
i think there are many possibly lame reasons for suicide. but many people have taken that decision because suffering does exist and suffering is unbearable, often, or sometimes. it is sad that suffering is unbearable.
so i'm not into telling people what to do. your life is your life. that's a comforting thing after all. that there is one possible way out. even though it is difficult.
but i also think that people who want to kill themselves should really try every drastic measure. remember the icarus poster? about stopping to adhere to societal standards?
suicide makes you free, in a way. since you're going to die anyway (suicide or not) you can try every crazy thing (that doesn't harm others), and given the option of suicide you will not even suffer the consequences if it goes wrong.
i feel weird when people talk about suicide who do not change their career path first, or throw it away, or change their surroundings, or try to have people as friends that are different from the friends they normally choose, try to live a very disciplined spiritual life, try to live without any discipline, cut off contact from family, etc etc etc
there are ten thousand things that you could do. that would partly possibly be harmful but partly also life saving, possibly.
i think the idea of suicide is very comforting. and i definitely need that comfort. and it's a real option (hopefully, because i want the palliated version of it). but i also think that since it doesn't matter anymore i can just let go of expectations. including my own - or what i think are my own and maybe aren't really.
i don't say it always works or things will be fine or anything. but suicide seems like a very non-reversible solution when people don't even try to go for drastic changes, even possibly "negative" changes on the outside. the illusion that people live with (are raised into?) is that we /know/ what will come from that. no, you don't. that's something you can be absolutely sure about. you don't know what things feel that you haven't done. you don't know what life will feel five or ten years from now. you don't know what taking a break from studying will do to you and volunteer wherever. you don't know what being homeless will do to you. it can all be shit, of course, but you don't know. so you still gotta try imho.
still there are points when the present is unbearable. so suicide is an option. just probably limiting your physical self-determination is not what you want to do (i worked in a hospital where there were people who survived suicide attempts and who were in states one really doesn't want to be in) and traumatizing others is not okay.
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why do i hate everybody? by maamyyrä » Jun 02, 2013 1:10 pm Posts: 7101 Joined: Oct 10, 2010 4:01 am Location: neither here nor there
i hate everybody. not everybody. but there are very few people i don't hate.
people trigger me so much that it's impossible to get along with them.
why doesn't everybody hate everybody?
frustrated
Re: why do i hate everybody? by chorn » Jun 20, 2013 1:12 pm Posts: 4213 Joined: Oct 14, 2009 5:15 pm Location: Southeastern United States
I think that you are highly individual and you don't like it when folks try to tell you how to feel or think.
... Most likely you have a heightened sense of what is wrong.
This is normally a pattern seen in revolutionaries who change things. And even if you are not a revolutionary, you may have certain qualities similar to a revolutionary.
Again, I am not trying to tell you who you are, I am just trying to make a very very bad guess as to the answer to your question.
Re: why do i hate everybody? by Anzu » Jun 03, 2013 6:48 pm
Hey maamyyra - I think for a long time I was in a space where I hated everyone, because I felt that in a sense "everyone" was responsible for / complacent with my psychiatric abuse. There really are a million little and not so little ways I get excluded from society / community and treated as less than, and guess what, yeah, it makes me hate "everyone." So when someone slights me in a fairly common way, like cutting in front of me in queue, I get triggered, because it's just one more little way my life and meaning as a person have been stolen from me. It's like, you rude shithead, am I really not even standing here?!
This is causing me to remember how after I got out of the hospital after being overdosed and was still looking for "help," a counselor was doing an intake and I convolutedly and tearfully explained what had happened, including forced injections, she said, "Well, nobody can force you to take a drug if you don't want to." Uh! It was like being punched in the gut. She wasn't even listening. I had fallen so low I didn't even fit in her frame of reference. How can you NOT hate someone like that? And EVERYBODY'S like that.
Re: why do i hate everybody? by pipsqueaker » Aug 02, 2013 6:44 pm Posts: 1 Joined: Aug 02, 2013 6:18 pm
When you experience the feeling of hating other people, what, if anything, are you wanting from them, or how would you like them to be/interact with you? I know that it can be difficult to examine, focus, or remember the things that ground the self in the present; but perhaps if you can figure an ideal that would not plague you, that may even please you, it may point to the reasons for your discontent.
Re: why do i hate everybody? by maamyyrä » Aug 06, 2013 1:29 pm
that's a good question, thank you. i'll think about that.
///// green is the color for reason likable smart grounded blue is just general additional highlight bcs it is the text color of links also it is inoffensive grey is for like bolding (am not bolding bcs they bold their own sometimes so to differentiate my own marking of the text) yellow is risky kind of bothersome really jumps out so maybe for humor for satisfying honesty but risky y maamyyra seems reddish to me
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dressing the way i want by maamyyrä » Jun 08, 2013 4:09 pm
why is it so awfully difficult?
what i want to wear: black leggings, beige-colored short skirt, black tee.
foreseeable effect: i look like ten thousand women around me.
i still can't do it. i am terrified to leave the house. i imagine horror scenarios of all the awful things that could happen when someone notices i am female. all the aggression i could suffer.
i don't actually necessarily fear sexual harrassment. what i fear is more vague. like summoning up the evil forces of the universe.
it feels entirely crazy.
i should have learned my lesson by now, that doing entirely crazy things is usually a good idea.
but i can't. when i think of it it seems like not such a big deal. but i don't do it. someone would kill me. the sky would fall on my head. something like that. and, of course, EVERYBODY would feel ashamed for me and would consider it a giant problem. (as if anybody cared what i wear. as if i were so interesting.
i am mostly scared of people noticing how it is 100% different from what i usually wear. so scared they notice that one single time i wear something else. very scared. i do want attention, in general. positively, of course. but the idea of drawing any attention to myself is terrifying. i don't think i dress for attention. i rather dress (the skirt thing) to figure out how to feel better or more like myself. but the idea of drawing any attention to myself (from those who would notice a change) is terrifying.
but i cannot let others decide what i wear, can i?
at the moment, i basically let hateful media harrassment decide what i wear. that doesn't seem right. i think i should decide what i wear. and at the moment i like this leggings/short skirt thing. and it's totally decent. there are ten gazillion women out there wearing that type of thing. i might even draw LESS attention to myself by wearing that.
all that seems reasonable, see?
yet, not leaving the house. strange, ridiculous fears.
there are possibly mobs out there that kill fat people who defy the fat-genderlessness dresscode, right? (death is fine, just would want to do it myself because i would be less cruel.) maybe lightning will strike me. some divine punishment intervention. but most likely human assault. not sure what would the difference. i get assaulted a lot. maybe i fear increase in assaults.
/// yet, not leaving the house ///
Re: crisis, need help! by maamyyrä » Apr 21, 2013 7:28 am
sorry if this sounds a bit lacking in empathy, but the normal situation in life is being without a partner. ..
it would be great if there was a world in which there would AlWAYS be someone when needed. if you find that world please take me there with you.
i'm sorry if this isn't very comforting but it's the truth about the world, that it requires a lot of self-reliance and clear expectations in others but also low expectations in others. .. and then there will most probably be a new relationship at some point. and it will break again. and so on and so forth. that's how it works, i think.
when feelings of abandonment get triggered that's horrible. i know that. i don't really know what to do about it myself. asking for support loudly and clearly is a good idea. but also letting go of the idea that there will be a supportive response is a good idea.
loss is very sad. it possibly heightens despair so much that it is unbearable. but loss is a part of life and there is nothing one can do about it. so you need some really good hibernation techniques for a few days or a few weeks, some really good self-care intentions. because whatever went wrong in that relationship you are totally deserving of your own care and of making things as safe and comfortable as possible for yourself.
searches done: q= despair q= suicide /lkg for maamyyra's post on it as above/
q=atlanta
maybe try q= care /adv srch q= "care of me"/
~
Re: outside looking out by FightForRoses » Oct 11, 2011 2:16 am
one last thing
simone weil for all her faults or whatever made a good point
in saying there's a natural tendancy to seek out any purpose whatsoever
even if it's a negative one
and in certain situations
the ability to accept aimlessness/purposelessness
is the only thing we can do that will make us able to not hurt each other
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wanting to die - ongoing roll call by maamyyrä » Aug 26, 2013 3:02 pm
talking about suicide seems to help many people. mostly as an emergency signal. often really seeking attention. but what is bad about honestly saying "i need attention today". suicide seems like an imperfect way to express that but since people actually feel like that it seems important to express it. it also seems important to see that it isn't that rare.
by maamyyrä » Aug 27, 2013 10:13 am
If there is the slightest chance you might want to live to remember skydiving, go do it.
do a tandem dive. do the course without socializing and be awkward. it doesn't matter. botch it. try again. fail again. who cares? /// so what? ////
i know there are lots of fears but i try to get myself to see that sitting around and being miserable is much worse than failing could ever be. there is so much serendipity in failing.
i know it's hard. but one needs to stop being reasonable because it's all these "reasons" that are obviously paralyzing. go to that skydiving course even just once. show up. what does the room look like? try again next year.
..
truth is a function of what makes you do something. the thought that is true is not the thought that seems "reasonable" according to internalized criteria that always generate the same results. the thought that is true is the thought that makes it possible to do something. which is why visions, and myths, and magic can be true in very real ways. // What is truth said jesting Pontius Pilate and wld not stay for an answer
so if there is the slightest chance that skydiving would make you feel something, go do it, botch, multiple times, even every time. botch it again.
for me it's not skydiving but walking in the world as if i could participate. as if i could connect to others, exist for others. as if. there's reasons to assume that the things we are most scared of are the things we need to do in order to leave the familiar despair. maybe only for the unfamiliar, who knows. but it doesn't matter. one needs to try.
Re: wanting to die - ongoing roll call by FLAMING ATTACK B0T » Aug 27, 2013 4:06 am
I've got nothing helpful to say on the subject either. " "I love you, please don't" just feels selfish to me so when people start talking like they're going to do it, I've changed it to "well, I'll miss you".
- - - - - - by maamyyrä » Aug 27, 2013 6:17 am
FLAMING ATTACK B0T wrote: conversations always go one of a very few different ways and always reach one of the same couple of conclusions. No one seems able to to tell me anything I haven't already heard and none of it is useful. [...] talking to [...] non-Icarus type people about it is the biggest waste of time I can think of.
agreed. concerning basically every topic. not just opting out of everything by means of dying. // so d n try to talk to // j didion: talk to someone. if d n help, talk to someone else.
i totally argue for talking about it very openly otherwise others would destroy themselves in searching for the small hints they've missed. also, talking about it in time //in time ie beforehand? // , and making clear that it is your own decision. nobody else's. which is difficult if someone depends on you emotionally.
but doesn't not talking about it (explicitely, no "hints" that can be misunderstood and overlooked) make things feel less like betrayal? // hm?//
there are more people killing themselves than die in car accidents. so it happens. there are even more who think about it at some point in their lives and who don't do it, and have reasons why they don't want to do it anymore. it's a topic that exists. people do feel that life is unbearable and torturing. you're definitely not the only one to experience such feelings. you wouldn't be the only one to make it true. you wouldn't be the only one to find other ways either.
I try to tell people several things. that A. it is not that easy to die as to swallow a few pills, and that i've seen people after unsuccessful suicide, and that's not what you want to be in, people permanently helpless and permanently confused and scared, unable to move. so if you feel dying is the only way out of the unbearable, put a lot of skill into making it work. people have fired shots into their heads and "only" ended up blind. dying requires knowledge.
B. you have responsibility for those who might watch or find you. you cannot do anything that leaves anybody else in life-long trauma to observe. make warning signs or whatever. make sure you are found by people who have training how to deal with it. C. take all the risks you can think of beforehand, if possible. i think the icarus poster is great because true. try to cross the barrier of your fears elsewhere first. break out of the life you think you're supposed to have. quit college, whatever. do something crazy. even something you are afraid you will regret because if you're dead you won't regret anything anyway and you owe it to yourself to do some gambling. the outcome of things may well be very different than what you expect. no promises. but you can go any risk. go skydiving. join a monastery with a faith that you don't even subscribe to. whatever. but create change.
... there is energy in knowing that i cannot bear it anymore. i can destroy things. i can make mistakes. it doesn't matter.
i have found calm to be the most helpful thing. the calm that comes from a feeling of connectedness. or from expressing whatever it is that is happening right now. calm. very temporary. but the only helpful thing. been spending many many hours writing myself to a bit of calm. then panicking again, and doing the same, over and over. few things exist that are so worth it. calm.
wishing peace to all others who struggle.
Re: wanting to die - ongoing roll call by Laerrus » Aug 28, 2013 9:06 pm
Tell me, what else should I have done? / Doesn't everything die at last, and too soon? / Tell me, what is it you plan to do
/ With your one .. life? -Mary Oliver
