________________

The House Next Door: David vs. David vs. David; or which is the greatest TV drama ever, Milch's Deadwood or Simon's The Wire or Chase's The Sopranos :

MZS: Not really, but only because I do think -- and I keep emphasizing this in comments sections of articles at The House Next Door -- that ultimately these things come down to who you are and.. what sort of world you think we live in, or ought to live in. And everybody's a little different in that regard, and different works of art speak to us differently. MZS comes out as clearly the one of these guys I'd be more willing to go on listening to; and I do expect that Deadwood and maybe John from Cincinnati will be the series most my when I ever watch it. poetry, tragedy, high highs & low lows, endlessness -'complexity & infinite potential' not the words I like- of every one person. origins, too. I do like the beginnings of things. (Didion: easy to see the beginnings of things and harder to see the ends.) and I would rather listen to Milch, seems the one I'd find more fascinating, than Simon or Chase.

MZS: How fatalistic are each of these shows? That's one question worth asking. To what degree can you escape your destiny, according to each show? Do you have a destiny, and can you escape it?
AS: Well, The Sopranos makes it pretty clear that escaping is impossible. I mean, that's what the entire show is about. The Wire, less so, but it shows that escaping is very, very hard.
MZS: Well, that line of Tony's on The Sopranos, "There's two ways a guy like me can go out -- dead, or in prison" -- that works, I think, figuratively as well as literally: that either your life is destroyed by an attempt to change your fundamental nature, or you end up in the prison of whoever you were all this time.
AS: And I can see you being more disposed toward Deadwood because that's by far the most optimistic show of the three.
MZS: It is. And it sounds funny to say that, because it's such a nasty show. It's so profane and bloody and sexually explicit and everything. But ultimately I feel that it is a life-affirming series, in terms of believing in the potential of every human being.

MZS: Well, is this the beginning of something, or is this the end of something?
AS: I don't know. The problem with The Sopranos was that it was so good, but also so popular that I think it made people think it was possible to replicate that success on a regular basis. I think one of the reasons Deadwood got cancelled, because it was never gonna bring ratings close to what The Sopranos brought.
MZS: And yet, all things considered I think it was the second or the third highest rated show that they had, consistently.
AS: Yeah.
AJ: Another thing about Deadwood, too, is that it had to be a lot more expensive than anything shot in contemporary--
AS: And also the fact that Milch is constantly writing and rewriting and tearing things apart and starting over.
MZS: I ask this because I was re-watching some episodes from Season One of Deadwood not too long ago, and at the beginning of the DVD they have a little trailer celebrating HBO. And this was, I guess, 2004, maybe, late 2004, when the first season came out on DVD. And in there were all these shows that were in rotation on HBO: they had Sex and the City, Six Feet Under, The Sopranos, Deadwood and The Wire, all in production at the same time!
And I felt like I was looking at--this is like the lost continent of Atlantis here. You know? Is it gone?
AJ: Shows like Tell Me You Love Me and In Treatment seem like they're going in a slightly different direction. It seems like almost [the] pursuit of a very different audience. They're shows that I like quite well. Anytime that you get shows that I consider intelligent--
MZS: But they're not shows that make me put my four-year old son to bed early.
AJ: No, they're not. It seems like right now, Showtime is kind of chugging along [with] the HBO model to a certain extent. I'm not really too crazy about any of their shows, except for Brotherhood, which ironically is the one that people say is a Sopranos rip-off, but I think it has a little bit more of The Wire in it. It owes a bit to both--
MZS: I was gonna say, Sopranos plus The Wire.
AS: HBO certainly [led to] a lot of these great shows. Mad Men on AMC. really? really is it great? sounds light to me The Shield, to some extent, on FX. Because of what Oz and The Sopranos and the rest of these shows did, the rest of cable is starting to catch up.
AJ: But HBO really is still The Standard. I had missed the last few episodes that FX showed of The Riches, and it's coming back for its second season right now, so I was going back and looking at the last couple of episodes of the first season. There's this one scene where Eddie Izzard's character is realizing just how expensive his family's lifestyle is, and then he's screaming at Minnie Driver on the phone, "Do you know how much money we're spending on HBO?" They just have to acknowledge it, almost. You've talked about FX being kind of the HBO Lite the HBO of basic cable. 'It's not tv, it's HBO.' and now: 'There is no law (Damages). There is order (The Shield). There is no picket fence (The Riches). There is no hero (Rescue Me). There is no villain (The Shield). There is no laugh track (Always Sunny.) There is no .. very special .. episode. FX. There is no box.'
MZS: It's interesting some of the different lessons that these cable networks seem to have drawn [from the success of HBO series]. For FX, it's what I call the "Oh, shit!" factor -- that the appeal of HBO shows is when you're watching them and somebody does something totally crazy and the audience goes, "Oh, shit!" y FX big on shock.
hmm. I was wanting a mention of Lost. did not get it.

75 comments:

-"The Sopranos" is the most personal of the three, dealing as it does with individuals as they are shaped by their families, and the terrible gravity of family dynamics. I tend to think that "deadwood" took itself out of the running, not only because it was cut off prematurely, but because it was cut off at a point such that the conclusion of the story came at a point so horrific that it ends up contradicting the spirit of the show. I agree that "deadwood", dirty as it was in all respects, is the most life affirming of the series.... but given that it concluded with the entire town colluding in the murder of an innocent to spare a favored member - I think we can only define it as the least depressing if we deny the actual ending and imagine, however hazily, where the show would have gone and *ought* to have concluded. I recommend "the sopranos" and "the wire" without hesitation. "deadwood" I cannot recommend without the caveat that it ends prematurely, and in entirely the wrong place.

-I just posted a response over at my blog, a rambling journey that eventually lead me to conclude that The Sopranos is the greatest because, better than any other TV show, it explores the human condition, the way we live today and the forces that shape us into individuals. I think the formation of civilizations, and the functioning of social systems are fascinating topics, but ultimately, nothing quite matches the human mind for complexity and depth. I agree with that. just seems to me that Deadwood is coming out of a mind (Milch's) most int to me.
I definitely liked Deadwood, but it never quite hooked me in the way those other two shows did. But, talking about the show's lack of conclusion, I saw John From Cincinnati as the lost fourth season of the show, spinning the action 150 years into the future, but continuing to explore the same themes, and bringing back the 'souls' of the Deadwood characters in new forms for the 21st century. I can see why people had issues with the show, but thematically, it's right there with Deadwood, and provided a sense of closure for that series with its euphoric finale. The metaphysical stuff about humanity as one organism was implicit in Deadwood, and it's brought to the fore in JFC. JFC still seems [to be taken as the subject of] jokes, and evidence of HBO's loss of direction, but I think history will see it differently, and it'll find a bigger and bigger audience as time goes on. It's a singularly powerful work, and while I wouldn't put it quite up there with The Sopranos or The Wire, it's not too far behind.

-I am a huge fan of Deadwood and its poetry, even though its artistic fluctuations affected me (and my appreciation thereof adversely) more than they obviously had Matt - but there is something elemental in my longing for catharsis ?resolution? in the show. The way things happen in the real world is a bitch sometimes, but when I think about the show, it is impossible for me not to think of what could have been achieved were it given the opportunity to naturally run its course.
The Wire, I just don't get. I am still on that one episode from the first series where the guy who also happens to be the guy that plays Matthew Abaddon in the recent Lost episodes, has dinner, at his relatively upper class looking house epis 6 the one I am on, with his wife, as they talk about his possible political future in the Force. It just hasn't grabbed me. epis 3 & 4 got me involved A bit too literalistic for my taste, The Wire – at least what I have seen of it so far (all three or four episodes).
All that is by way of my saying that I think it is The Sopranos that deserves the crown…

--Ali, Hang in there with The Wire. You are (literally) the 10th person (including me) who got to just about that exact point, said "Huh, not for me, I guess" and gave up. But then we (all) went back and stuck it out for another episode or two...and now I can't imagine life without it. Kind of hyperbolic, but not really! That said, I go with Matt and Deadwood. I have a close friend who was an AD for all three seasons, and it is the only show she has worked on - and she has worked on some fine shows - that gets her misty-eyed with love and longing. And me too.

-For me the Wire stands head and shoulders above the others because of the scope they are playing with. The Sopranos was, of course, deeply and famously grounded in the individual. Deadwood was more community-oriented, but let's face it, without Swearengen there's no Deadwood. But the Wire was about Baltimore, and each "character", from Carcetti right down to Bubs, was really just a facet of the whole. Which meant that, as lovable as McNulty could be (and detestable, depending on the episode), as innovative as Stringer was, as unique and fascinating as Omar was, and that for all of Marlo's fearsomeness, the show remained much, much bigger than any of them. I am convinced that, had the show chosen to focus on McNulty, or Omar, or Stringer, they would have found a protagonist more than capable of shouldering the weight of a fascinating series. Instead, the Wire had the courage to rise above even its most appealing and interesting characters. Stringer died, McNulty all but vanishes for 2 seasons, Omar remains a recurring theme almost to the end but never was the show's focus, and Marlo doesn't even show up until halfway through the show's run and doesn't show a hint of emotion until the second to last episode. And yet the show rolled on, consistently brilliant from start to finish, letting each character be the facet of the story they were intended to be. The one constant is Baltimore.
And in characterizing a place, the Wire is unparalleled in the history of Television. I live in North Jersey, and somehow the world Tony inhabits never felt half as vivid as Baltimore, a place I have never been too. And Deadwood was wondrous, but also always felt fanciful to me, brilliantly realized the way Tolkein's Middle Earth or McMurty's Lonesome Dove are (or, were it a show of higher quality hrm, the way the Island in Lost might be). But I can sit down with a boxed set of the Wire and at the end feel, not just that I have observed a real place, but that in some sense I have actually lived there, that in watching it has become my home too.

-Matt Zoller Seitz said...
Alan: "I always took Milch's "the camp lasted four years, so I want to do four seasons" as a face-saving exercise once he realized the show might be in trouble." I don't think so. He said pretty much the same thing to me, in those words, when I visited the set while Season Two was still in production -- and HBO had just kicked in a shitload of money to expand the town -- and he reconfirmed it when I visited again a year later.
It gets my dander up (to use "Deadwood" vernacular) when unsatisfying or unresolved subplots from Season Three are held against "Deadwood." Milch always had more of an improvisational bent than Chase or Simon, but he operated the same way throughout the series' run, and Seasons One and Two were mighty tight, and there were callbacks to Season One in Season Two, and to the first two seasons in Season Three. I have to believe that he wouldn't have brought Brian Cox and his drama troupe into the town, and established Langrishe's close, rather touching relationship with Swearengen, if he hadn't intended to use those characters again, more prominently, in the never-happened Season Four.
For overall consistency, "The Wire" wins, hands-down.
But there was a richness of language, characterization, incident, and theme on "Deadwood" that "The Wire" rarely seemed inclined to attempt, and that "The Sopranos" approached only sometimes.
Plus, "The Sopranos" and "The Wire" seem very much rooted in late 20th century/early 21st century American life, where "Deadwood" seems to me more timeless, more applicable to different eras and peoples. (Milch originally pitched it as a Rome series, and told that HBO already had one, said, "What about a western, then?" huh. A better compliment to the show's universality is tough to imagine. ~ than its plausibility in conception as set Rome or American frontier)

-The first two seasons of Deadwood were significantly better than anything else, and season three had its moments. Perhaps this is obvious, or perhaps I am just in left field, but I always thought that Deadwood ended with a shoutout to the end of 'The Sun Also Rises' -- "Isn't it pretty to think so", which to me goes a lot better with the actual ending than the more Shakespearean one suggested.

Deadwood literary, TheWire journalistic. & TheSopranos ~ ? I dunno, tvshowish?

-Mo Ryan: Whereas Chase sometimes wants to beat the audience over the head with the idea that "people don't change," and The Wire's theme is that "institutions don't change," Deadwood's theme seems to be, "Isn't life strange and terrible and wonderful?"
--MZS: I've written probably tens of thousands of words about "Deadwood" over the years*, but you've summed up my preference for "Deadwood" in a single sentence. Thanks and I hope you don't mind if I start quoting that all over the place.

-Deadwood's theme seems to be, "Isn't life strange and terrible and wonderful?"
--Alternately, "It's a sad and beautiful world. Buzz off."
The first two seasons of Deadwood are better than anything the other two shows had to offer, imo. That said, I might vote for The Wire as best, simply because it was consistently amazing for several seasons. Deadwood was gutshot in S3; it stumbled and died in the street.


*-Matt Zoller Seitz said...
Jack Reed: "Thanks Matt, Alan, and Andrew for a really interesting conversation. It compelled me to check out your Deadwood recaps, Matt, which I've long noticed in the sidebar and have been meaning to read following your dense critiques of the final Sopranos season (I wasn't reading HND during Deadwood's). Sadly, the Star-Ledger links no longer work. Is it possible for these to be reprinted in full at House Next Door? It would be great to have a look at them."
Well, Jack, this is a sad story that's been recounted on this site before, but: the Star-Ledger's web site doesn't do permalinks (I guess they're trying to save bandwidth) so after a couple of weeks, all links stop working except for stuff they make a point of archiving in a permanent home (such as a sampling of my and Alan's "Sopranos" coverage). The stuff would usually be saved in an electronic archive somewhere, and of course in bound editions of the print newspaper. However, unfortunately for me, ten of my 12 recaps of "Deadwood" Season Three were written as online-only content, meaning they never appeared in the paper. I didn't realize at the time that the paper had no intention of saving content that did not appear in the print edition, otherwise I would have saved copies of everything on my computer. But I wrote most of the recaps in e-mail and sent them to the paper as soon as I was done; that means the articles -- probably 14,000 words worth of analysis -- no longer exist in any retrievable form. Basically, they're gone.
I've tried to find them through various search engines (including Google Cache, which readers keep suggesting to me, not realizing its limitations) but to no avail.
Unless some "Deadwood" obsessive saved copies of all of them someplace and can send me copies, I have to just write this one off as the electronic equivalent of a manuscript lost in a fire. As they were written the summer after after my wife's death, there's no way for me to re-create the mindset that produced them, even if I could approximate their content and style, which is unlikely anyway. oh-

Deadwood (12) .....David Milch (20)

The House Next Door: Deadwood Monday: Season Three, Ep. 25, "Tell Your God to Ready for Blood": 'Deadwood' creator David Milch once said that his panoramic western drama was actually all about one character, 'the human organism.' That sounds grandiose and abstract until you watch 'Deadwood,' a show featuring at least 60 recurring characters, each one of whom is not just psychologically complex, but rich in undiscovered potential. These people travel through life, interacting with government, business, law enforcement, and religion; making and sometimes ducking moral choices, chasing dreams and fleeing demons, evolving as they go, and illuminating the constants of human experience.
-Change is the dominant theme of 'Deadwood': the change from lawlessness to order , and personal change.