5-10: "He's Our You" 2009.03.25 - TWoP Forums p11:

-Season 1-2-3-4 and first half of season 5 Ben (no matter what year) had no idea that Sayid shot him at age 12, because it hadn't happened yet. To Sayid or Ben. It just happened during this episode (no matter what year) and now we are safe to assume that 'just crashed on the hydra island and got lumped up by a boat oar thanks to action Sun' Ben NOW remembers it because it just happened. Remember when Desmond suddenly woke up with Penny and 'remembered' that Daniel Faraday knocked on the hatch door back in 2002 or 2003 or 2004? He didn't know Daniel Faraday did that until that point because it hadn't happened yet....again: Time does not equal a straight line.

-NotSure:
ITDA. From Ben's perspective, it HAD happened already: he was only 15 or so when it happened, and his personal timeline was much older in the first few seasons. It HAD NOT happened yet for Sayid: his personal timeline is only now reaching this point. So Ben would have remembered (barring amnesia), whereas Sayid would not. good. distinguish btw personal timeline (lifestream) and chronology.
And you can't compare any timeline issues of Desmond with anything that happens to anyone else. His circumstance is explicitly unique. right.
There is no 'alternate universe', no 'course correction' needed here. I joked earlier about Paradoxia, but I'm certain that either Ben is not dead or that he is fully revived somehow (naturally or supernaturally) and lives whatever life we have already seen him live. He was always shot by Sayid, and it seems likely that this contributed to his future mental issues. We are seeing the rich storyline of Sayid helping to create the monster he loathed.

good. int how the rxns to Lost this season seem to fall (too easily for me?) into 'gets it' or just doesn't. re the time. it's just irritating (mildly) to me to read the comments like above. I'm dismissive. if commenter does not understand or does not subscribe to 'whatever happened, happened.' (or: the 12 monkeys theory of time. closed loop.) it seems like not understanding, rather than not subscribing, bcs have not read a well writ proposal of an alternative theory. always just seems confused, like the person has not thought it through.
unclosed loops just don't make any sense to me. very basic. says x does not equal x. the back to the future model just does not seem to take time seriously. it pretends it's not what it is.
this is really the same allegiance as my old one to what I found articulated in Leibniz (the notion of the person containing evth the person does as certain; d n mean un-free), and really even in Heidegger and back to Aristotle: what is, is.

anyway I've enjoyed Lost bcs seems totally in the whatever happened, happened world; which is any world I've yet seen as possible. so tonight was a shocker. maybe my first experience of actually being left hanging, as from a cliff. actually unhappy that have to wait a week to see, what? twop p1 "Uh, that can't happen, can it?" but it did! now relieved by having seen that next week's episode is *called* Whatever Happened, Happened. (and by having read tvguide's logline.) nice move having the next episode an explicit (in the title!) answer to the seeming challenge in this episode to the time theory.

I do think it will be tough to convincingly present Sayid's shot as not fatal. I mean, if anyone is a sure shot, it's Sayid, right? He is the most skilled, accurate, capable, proficient character ~ever. and that was a shot at close-ish range to the chest, left side. Sayid wld know how to hit the heart.
but what maybe no one is a sure shot? and the island protects its children. (still, while the island may be the power that saved Locke's life when Ben shot him at the pit, the island only had to be the luck that Locke was shot where his missing kidney was not. so, his surviving was accomplished through ~natural means. )

I thought this episode was a heck of a show.
mainly: the scenes with Sayid and young Ben.
father Roger berating Ben, Sayid in his cell rising to his feet. the humanity he showed to the kid, along with the decision yes to kill him.
I liked Sayid here more than I ever have. appreciated getting to be be confident in how totally sharp this char is. 'nothing much gets past this guy.' no.
if there's a way to get the drop on these Dharma folks, he will. 'get the drop' ~?
~better than Jack Bauer, why? because his gaze seems more strikingly intelligent, taking everything in.


with the suspense of the end dulled by looking at tvguide for upcoming two episodes, the remaining question for me is, how did what we saw in tonight's flashbacks explain Sayid's turn from working for Ben to telling Hurley never to trust him? he was left seeming lost and alone when Ben said their work was done. "what will I do now?" "live your life. you are free." and then what, because left with his guilt, he was disgusted with Ben and with himself for doing his bidding? and~or Ben then showing up & telling him that who he is is a killer, that made him disgusted with working for this "liar and manipulator" as he said to Illana? point is: we did not see anything overt to cause a turn, no revelation of a lie or manipulation by Ben that undercut their alliance. just the way Sayid probably always felt about Ben coming to the fore? once the work was not providing a way at channelling his grief over Nadia. or did I miss sth? Sayid did not discover anything new about Ben in the flashbacks, did he? .............it's as if I missed a revelation that Ben had set Sayid up to think that Widmore's people, who they were allied against & Sayid was killing on Ben's orders, had killed Nadia. when in fact Ben had. *that* would explain Sayid's total turn against Ben the manipulator. it wld so well answer my qstn here that I am just about convinced I did somehow miss that. (cld have been said in the moments after a commercial break that I was flipping to other channgels? how do I miss sth like that in moments? that's huge. but it seems it must have happened. or: it was not revealed here, but will be. ~ I dunno. if Ben actually is responsible for Nadia's death, and Sayid knew that, hard to believe adult Sayid would not have immediately killed adult Ben, not calmly spoken to him when he showed up in Santo Domingo.)

...numerous notes at dlcs pagemarks of twop thread p1-4, 11, 13-16